| Author |
Message |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 103
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 1:09 am: | 
|
ever since the fees were introduced i have been avoiding the park areas except for the odd night of criminal (unpaid) camping. i got turned off algonquin in the 80's because of the fees and the ridiculous system of having to reserve a particular campsite a week or more before arrival. sure, this was algonquin with all its facilities and large workforce having to be paid for- car camping, museums, slideshows, highway maintenance, opeongo and canoe lake centres, parking lots, trail maintenance, etc. etc....
so we started coming to temagami for the absence of fees and the freedom of being able to take a rain or wind day, or even decide to alter a planned route based on contingencies (or whim). i know i could get this expeience in the remote north but i do not have the time or dollars required for an expedition of that sort- but thanks to temagami you could do it a day and a half from toronto.
so now they have the fees, what i want to know is how do they work? if i'm planning a trip of several weeks with 5-8 days inside the parks depending on conditions, how many twenty-dollar nights do i have to buy? if i don't stay all the nights i paid for do i get a refund?
what happens if i get to some lake in the middle of nowhere with only one campsite and its already taken? do i get a refund?
the more i think about it, i'd almost rather go to jail than pay those ridiculous and unjustifiable fees. they make a travesty of the whole idea of a wilderness experience, which is really all about freedom and self-sufficiency.
i spent 15 years helping to clear those portages, and taking out an average of one 20-pound green garbage bag full of garbage per trip. yet now i have to stay away from those areas and leave them to the "glampers" and thousand-dollar fly-ins because they "paid for it".
i can't get past the idea that paying the ridiculous and outrageous fee would be giving my consent to an unjustifiable and despotic rule.
"the subject who is truly loyal to the chief magistrate will neither advise nor consent to arbitrary measures." (junius)
ok, sorry about the rant. if i do decide to risk eternal damnation, sell my soul to the devil and pay the fee, how does it "work"?
and since i do not think i will be able to do that, does anyone know if this "law" has any real teeth..? has anyone ever been fined "up to a hundred dollars a day"? |
brian
Moderator
Post Number: 1353
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 10:01 am: |
|
You pay per person per night. You estimate how many and don't get a refund if you get it wrong. And a refund because someone is in the campsite you want? Where's that spirit of self-sufficiency? |
johnmillsbro
Member
Post Number: 17
Registered: 06-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 10:12 am: |
|
Whats wrong with a fee. Assuming the money is going towards land stewardship. I certainly hope there will never be a need to reserve sites in advance.... |
doublebend
Member
Post Number: 34
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 12:33 pm: |
|
Land stewardship. Ha! That's a good one... and the problem with assumptions.
The main problem with the fees is that they become self-perpetuating. The bureaucracy created to administer the fees ends up consuming a disproportionate percentage of the take.
The only 'improvements' I've noticed are plastic campsite signs marking obvious campsites, plastic signs covering ancient tree blazes at the ends of portages, and plastic signs pointing campers to sub-standard thunderboxes that provide users awkward-to-extract slivers or a precarious experience.
The end of an era.
DoubleBend |
ramdnm
Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 2:53 pm: |
|
Last year I paid my fees at Finlayson, and interestingly neither person working at the office knew how to fill out the forms. Both were summer employees I'm sure, but it was late August. I ask them if many people paid the camping fee and I was told I was the first person they had registered. Maybe no one registers, may be no one checks, maybe they didn't understand me. That was my experience. |
brian
Moderator
Post Number: 1354
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 4:19 pm: |
|
A huge number of folks buy them through the vendors. Way easier than at the office, which has shorter hours.
Some criticism may be valid, but there are also things they do that we don't see, like removing the bridge over South Lady Evelyn River and removing a portion of the old Liskeard Lumber Road (aka Deep Lake Road) to the bridge location. Big step in protecting the park.
http://www.ottertooth.com/Temagami/News/newsbriefs-108.htm#oc16
|
ramdnm
Member
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 4:31 pm: |
|
Seems like that would be the reason (buying permints from vendors). I like the idea of paying for what I use. I also like the stewardship of those who clean up what others have left behind, and work on opening up and keeping up portages and camp sites. I find plenty to be cynical about, and I have to encourage myself to remember most people do do the right thing. So thank you to those who give their time and hard work. |
irishfield
Member
Post Number: 323
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 10:34 pm: |
|
Plenty of water to paddle in the North without going into Lady E Smoothwater. Back lake permits $'s per person are a tad out of line considering a family of 4 (or more) can camp with the luxury of a comfort station (and power) at Finlayson for under $30 a night. |
doublebend
Member
Post Number: 35
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 11:20 pm: |
|
Re: removing the SLER bridge...
So our exorbitant camping fees help fund removal of a bridge on a logging road that was built using taxpayers' money and that serviced lumber companies and hunting outfitters for decades, permitting them to extract resources for profit. And we're funding the removal?
What's wrong with this picture? |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 104
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 12:00 am: |
|
i am constantly amazed at how easily we allow ourselves to be s-----d by those who, quite frankly, do not have our best interests at heart. in case no-one has noticed, all over the world there is a steady erosion of what are called "commons"- those things that belong equally to all and are paid for equally by all through taxes- in favour of a "user pays" mentality.
pre-2005, we already DID pay for the (essentially negligible) maintenance of these parks out of our provincial taxes (the whole purpose of which maintenance being- an appropriately kafkaesque touch- presumably the prevention of development, i.e. not touching anything). these taxes, like the present fees, all go to the treasurer as general revenue. your 10 dollars probably paid for a glass of wine consumed by a mining-industry lobbyist. i know, many years ago i worked at queen's park.
"i like the idea of paying for what i use" seems to me an incredible statement in light of the above. you already did pay for it, as your parents and grandparents did before you!!
it is a slippery slope: if i accept that as a citizen of canada i should pay to camp in a wilderness area which belongs collectively to those same citizens, then for example i should not complain when all roads in ontario, especially the one that leads to my front door (the one i use the most) become toll roads. in fact, since the road network requires hugely greater expenditures than the temagami canoe routes, there is far more reason to have a user fee.
naturally i should also feel happy about it if the city where i live and pay property taxes starts charging me five bucks a head for a walk in the city park- after all i am the one using it!! and that aquifer my dug well is drawing water from- i should be charged for that too! in fact when i think of all that air i've been breathing...
naturally the corollary of "i should pay for what i use" is "i should not pay for what i don't use"- therefore i should not pay for schools if i don't have kids currently in school, or public libraries if i don't read. hey- why the **** am i paying for the health care system if i haven't been using it!!?
folks, a reality check- you do not become a freer person by being coerced into paying an extra fee for something you have always paid for, by a government that won't be buying you a ten-dollar glass of wine anytime soon.... |
irishfield
Member
Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 12:42 am: |
|
Lots of things in life that seem unfair grncnu... I've dished out 49% of my income for over 25 years into a dark hole, but considering in the last 8 months I figure that my daughter has racked up at least 900,000 dollars in Sarcoma treatment (and she hasn't even started rehab now that she's missing a pelvic bone), I've gone pretty quiet on the complaint front when it comes to taxation in Canada...
(Message edited by irishfield on July 16, 2011) |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 105
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 2:31 am: |
|
irishfield, just to be clear i am in FAVOUR of (progressive) taxation and public health care, OPPOSED to user pays!!! you should not have to pay anything because your daughter is ill, because it is a benefit to the society as a whole when she gets better; it is in the common interest. in the same way even though i don't have kids i SHOULD pay for other people's kids' education because it benefits the whole society. i believe these "commons" should be extended, not relentlessly taken away, which is what is happening. that's my whole point. |
alscool
Moderator
Post Number: 331
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 7:43 am: |
|
I have to agree with grncnu, the Parks should be cleaned protected and promoted regardless of camp fees and if you pay a fee your site thunderbox should not be busting the seams,
ever. |
yywilderness
Member
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 12:27 pm: |
|
My question here is who is suppose to empty the thunderboxes and clean the camp sites. I know that those using the camp sites and portages have a responsibility to clean after themselves. Who is paid to do the major upkeep. If someone is supposed to do it, are they or aren't they? Who should this discussion be directed towards. Are the thunderboxes all busting at the seams, is the problem concentrated in one area. Maybe the appropriate agency or person should be informed and asked to take care of the problem. If this is already being done, and the problem isn't being taken care of, why not? What's the next step? |
johnmillsbro
Member
Post Number: 18
Registered: 06-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 1:20 pm: |
|
I'd be curious to know how much money is taken in and what it is spent on. Accountability. Where can I access this information?? |
irishfield
Member
Post Number: 325
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 7:01 pm: |
|
Sorry grncnu.. misunderstood. I have shelled out $28,000 from my own pocket for ten anti-infection needles that aren't covered by OHIP. Had a good conversation with Jack Layton about that when he was my daughters room mate for 4 days....
Based on the number of "wardens" in the park at any one time, it sure isn't a for profit fee system...
(Message edited by irishfield on July 16, 2011) |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 106
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 12:52 am: |
|
irishfield, i'm sure i can speak for everyone on the forum in wishing your daughter all the very best and a speedy recovery. it drives me nuts hearing that ohip doesn't cover something that essential.
while i realize that me groaning about camping fees in temagami seems like peanuts in comparison, i'd still say the two issues are related. for one thing, i'd say that those who are trying to systematically roll back our hard-won rights (right to universal healthcare, right to move about freely on crown land) are smart enough to realize that a) they have to move incrementally and b) they can take advantage of the fact that everyone is too preoccupied with the daily struggle to be likely to make a big stink about comparatively trivial losses of freedom. in fact (conveniently) the more difficult you make people's lives, the less likely they are to be willing or able to organize sufficiently to challenge anything.
johnmillsbro, i agree- even just the total take in a season would be worth knowing, and that information ought to be publicly accessible as a matter of course. as for finding out what those particular dollars were spent on, good luck with that!
if irishfield is right, then it's exactly like those new york state toll highways back in the 70's, where it was found that 100% of the toll revenue was going to man and maintain the toll booths... |
alscool
Moderator
Post Number: 332
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 9:34 am: |
|
To help frame who and where, here is some background info on the MNR back-country maintence program from a few years ago. No financials though.
http://friendsoftemagami.org/index.php/in-the-news /general-news/72-mnr-back-country-maintenance-prog ram-2009 |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 107
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 1:50 am: |
|
thanks for passing that on alscool. since the document is extremely general and covers both parks and crown land, where camping fees are not charged, it kind of sounds like the no-trace campers in the park areas are sudsidizing the maintenance of the heavily used and abused out-of-park areas.
anyway, shouldn't they at least tell people a)the total budget of the backcountry maintenance program and b)the total revenues from backcountry park camping fees? |
canoe2
Member
Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2011 - 9:09 pm: |
|
alscool... thanx for the link... of note the backcountry program has dwindled from three teams to one team plus one other person... and no chainsaw training this year... UGH...
The crews are suppose to be divided... one or two to parks and one to district. The district team does the crown stuff and the parks guys concentrate on that or that was suppose to be the case... this year there was just a district team and the park had one person who couldn't go in the bush without a partner... but there was some partnership work done though with the district team and the Temagami Lakes Stewardship group...
I believe the district budget was about $40K this year to cover salaries (2), vehicle, fuel etc.
I followed the backcountry crew on two trips this year. I had avoided the highly travelled areas because of debris the last few years, this year following the crew I found clean sites, clear portages except for the large blow downs and FIREWOOD!!!!
I think the program needs work but is worth supporting particularly when you have to pay so much to use the backcountry!
Happy Paddlin' :-) |
preacher
Member
Post Number: 165
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 4:35 pm: |
|
Why all the anger & frustration?
$10-20/night is cheap. It's the best vacation bang for your buck when you look at what you get.
Every comparison of free vs. pay areas I've done demonstrates that pay is cleaner. I watched as one specific area went from free to pay and the change was immediate & noticable. Gone are piles of poop & toilet paper flowers & firepits every 20'.
People are more respectful too. Where there aren't any fees there are a lot more howling-at-the-moon types with their radios & guitars getting their come-bye-ya-yas off. In one non-operating park we actually heard people playing XBox, Rock Band.
Some parks do give refunds. I know APP will give you a refund if you exit the park early, just check in at the office. I know of people who have received refunds when their reserved lake has no empty sites.
Comparing interior to car-camping is as valid as comparing the experiences themselves. I've enjoyed car-camping, but a situation where you can hear your neighbour fart is closer to lack of privacy than it is to camping.
Government budgets are available. Contact your MPP or the MNR for details.
I believe park fee revenues go to General Revenue coffers. Parks receive a budget, that money comes from the revenue pool their fees feed. So yes our fees go to the park in a round-about way. Since we believe in a government charged with the redistribution of wealth, this is part of that.
Parks keep the money earned from concessions, ironically a revenue stream mostly avoided by trippers. It's not like we're going to paddle out, buy a candy bar & some firewood, paddle back in.
There are tripping options for all tastes. If you want to reserve your favourite site, you can go to Massasauga and do that. If you want more wiggle room you can reserve a lake in APP and pick from the available sites. If you want no restrictions then Quetico fits the bill. There are a number of non-operating parks that you can travel that have no fees and some amenities. If you want to be totally independant from The Man you can travel Crown Land for free. |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 183
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 8:52 pm: |
|
well said. All of the problems found on campsites source from irresponsible users. We cannot expect government to fix lack of respect and human stupidity. Oh, that is was otherwise.
|
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 127
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 11:00 pm: |
|
yeah, but i just went down the upper sturgeon last week (a park, fees payable), which i haven't seen in about ten years since before fees.
the campsites were the same as ever- the canoe-accessible-only ones were quite clean except for older trash (rusty but not quite "historical"), the atv-accessible ones in their usual trashed-out state.
the portages were less well-maintained than 20 or 10 years ago. mostly small stuff so far but getting bigger fast and already a serious drag especially with the canoe. the only evidence i saw of recent clearing was the odd snapped branch and a few blowdowns cleared with a hand saw. comparing it with 20 yrs ago i would guess that people aren't doing the maintenance themselves anymore cause they feel they are paying for the government to do it, only the government ain't doing it so no-one is.
add to this the fact that as you canoe up or down this ribbon-thin "park", dodging the trashed-out atv campsites, you can hear the clearcutting operations a few hundred yards away.
so, campsites the same, portages uncleared, chainsaws and atv's-- remind me why it's a good deal at 20 bucks a night? |
micmac
Member
Post Number: 123
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 8:09 am: |
|
grncnu has summed up my sentiments exactly with the above post. |
Temagami general