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Message |
ed
Moderator
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - 1:19 pm: | 
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There are old growth red and white pine forests in the province that have been burned, but the trees are still standing and living. They usually bear the marks of the fire around their bases.
There are some stands in Algonquin PP on day hiking trails along highway #60 that bear these scars.
I have also seen the remains of fires in the boreal forest, such as along the Flindt River in Wabakimi PP, where the temperature was so hot everything organic was gone. All that remained was mineral in mostly powder form. The only thing left standing on one campsite consumed in this fire was an old Keewaydin 3 sided fireplace.
Wabakimi is a Wilderness Class Park so the forces of nature are generally free to do as they wish.
Sometimes the fires there are attacked and put out if they threaten someone's outpost property. |
dave
Member
Post Number: 229
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - 8:00 pm: |
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grncnu...maples are using tree-fall gaps as corridors to inhabit the area. anyone with a grade 9 science credit knows that red pine is a fire species, hence need fire to flourish (note: i said flourish, not reproduce). it's not a bad thing, if that's what supposed to happen. i'm just saying that they're moving in. sorry if it sounded like i was saying it's a bad thing. in addition, the forest is migrating northward due to the changing climate..this is not unheard of, as it happens cyclically. hell, the area was once covered by oak.
my evidence comes from ecologists, consultants, managers, planners, biologists, etc., throughout my 6 years (and counting) of studying/learning/doing. remains of these fires are everywhere if you look for them. they're not unheard of in the past, but due to fire suppression tactics they're non-existent, and now the forest is more volatile than ever due to the buildup of tinder on the forest floor.
as for your picture, go to reuben lake to see the biggest one i can think of off the top of my head. just because you don't know of them, doesn't mean they don't exist.
don't get me wrong, i'm on the side of just letting the forest do what it does, if it doesn't have an impact on human life. but due to the mass fire suppression, we need a disturbance of some kind. ex. - spruce budworm outbreaks are getting worse because of a lack of disturbance
(Message edited by dave on April 10, 2012)
(Message edited by dave on April 10, 2012) |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 188
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2012 - 12:47 am: |
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sorry if i gave the impression i am against fires and other natural disturbances, that's actually the opposite of what i'm saying. for the record i absolutely agree that fire is an essential agent of succession in forest communities. nor am i against logging per se, i just think the way it is done nowadays is part of a worldwide pattern of irresponsible resource extraction that is leading us all to a very negative place & therefore i am irritated by the self-serving (to the industry) notion that disturbance-by-logging is analogous to natural disturbance and therefore preferable to no disturbance as a general rule. by this logic for example the wakimika triangle should immediately be logged... if it ain't gonna burn, better log it now! in fact, large uninterfered-with forests (say, the forests of ontario 400 years ago) present a broad mosaic of recently- disturbed areas, succession areas, mature areas along with old-growth areas undisturbed through many centuries. if the province in 1800 had been as heavily disturbed as you seem to assume, where would the royal navy have gotten its masts?
also, you talk as though fire suppression is absolute; yet anyone who has canoed temagami can see evidence of recent large fires. not as many, and not as extensive to be sure as would be the case without any suppression at all but still part of the landscape. ask residents of the dryden district if fire suppression is 100%!
this idea that logging is a substitute for natural disturbance is awfully convenient for the logging industry and it does not surprise me that it has been inculcated into the minds of "ecologists, consultants, planners, etc"- after all why do these job descriptions exist? or to put it another way, who do you think largely employs these people when they graduate? i don't think most of them are out there doing pure science for no recompense other than the satisfaction gained through enlarging human knowledge... no, they are working for government and industry in a notably resource-dependent region.
as for my original assertion that clearcutting on a massive scale does not typically take place in "cottagy" areas, this seems to me self-evident, even though you are correct in assuming i'm not familiar with reuben lake. it does hold true for all the hundreds of cottagy areas i am familiar with. for example lake temagami- or lake rosseau in muskoka for that matter- do not look like my picture... for the most part massive clearcuts are in back areas where fewer people will see them... that's all i meant and i can't believe i have to go to this much effort to explain something that must be obvious to anyone, even someone who didn't take science in grade 9... if that's even possible!
i do appreciate, by the way, that we are essentially on the same side when it comes to the basic issues..!! |
dave
Member
Post Number: 230
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2012 - 6:20 pm: |
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i didn't even get into detail ;). the whole thing is filled with grey areas, but in keeping a broad scale on the conversation, i agree 100% that current logging practices are in dire need of improvement. we've come a long way, but still need a long ways to go.
the fires happened, but it's the visualisation of them that throws people off..they think apocalyptic, earth scorching hellfire sweeping the landscape (not saying you).
clear cutting is technically illegal above a certain size in ontario (i forget the exact number), but there are no limits to what constitutes shelterwood, so companies take advantage of it to the point where it may as well be clear cut. your "cottagy" areas happen to be where the most money is (ie - people with loaded pockets)..coincidence?? ;) it's everywhere else that gets the shaft
in terms of fire suppression, i meant that it's "absolute" in populated areas..if it's back country they tend to control it (if they can), not suppress it..and then sometimes (dryden) it just doesn't work.
but the key thing here is...can't we all just get along? haha |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 190
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2012 - 11:25 pm: |
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i agree dave, my irritability is really a manifestation of frustration at the speed with which the world is being flushed down the toilet...
i did not realize myself until i read in "the temagami experience" (can't remember the author's name) that until the late 50's temagami, which as you know was intensively logged over from the early 1900's, did not see the introduction of the chain saw. i know, i know, things were far from ideal back in the good old days, we just didn't have the power to do this much damage. all for the benefit of the guys with cottages on lake rosseau...
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brian
Moderator
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 10:52 am: |
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Actually Temagami was NOT intensively logged over from the early 1900s. Along the Montreal River, lower Sturgeon and in Chiniguchi area, yes. But not the rest. That really didn't get intensive until after WWII.
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curly
Member
Post Number: 331
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 12:44 pm: |
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There is no upper limit on clearcut size in Ontario. Used to be 260 ha. That was eliminated a few years ago.
Bruce Hodgins and Jamie Benedickson wrote Temagami Experience. Essential reading for anyone interested in the history of logging in Temagami. In a nutshell, logging has always been driven by local political and economic concerns, rather than the best science available. This has been the ongoing story since the creation of the Temagami Forest Reserve in 1901.
My 2 cents. Things are better now than in the late 20th century. But not as good as before mechanization, but that's a reflection of scale and ability rather than the ethics or the science of logging. |
dave
Member
Post Number: 231
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 11:38 pm: |
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i was under the impression that the size changed as opposed to being dropped altogether. that it was raised to 300-something ha |
curly
Member
Post Number: 332
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 2:58 pm: |
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Nope, no limit. |
emerald
Member
Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:01 am: |
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As I was catching up on Ottertooth I was disturbed to find that irishfield and dave seem to accept that there was tree spiking in the Temagami forest during the contorversy over the Red Squirrel Road extension proposal.This shows how effectively history can be massaged by propoganda from the other side of an issue. During the many months of the camp-in at Wakimika, with the many groups involved and the final succession to the First Nations in October, there was never a single act of violence perpetrated by the protesters. The so called spiking incident was obviously a set up by forces supporting the Red Squirrel Road and all that it would mean to development. It is very peculiar that the indusrty lobby group, out of North Bay, took the media directly to a tree with spikes. The environmentalists had nothing to do with this. We were well aware of the danger to the workers in a mill if logs were spiked. Our philosophy was much more in tune with Ghandi than with such war like attitudes. So irishfield, you have nothing to "live down", only a history to be immensely proud of and which changed the face of the northern forest.Following this controversy there were numerous initiatives that required and supported public involvement in forest management. The trouble is, it takes a lot of time and effort to educate oneself on the issues and be vigilant about the practices. Few citizens can maintain this level of committment. |
curly
Member
Post Number: 338
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 1:09 pm: |
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Same scenario at Owain Lake in 1996. Some local politicians, to great fanfare, brought the media to a spiked tree they had "found" with a metal detector. The media ate it up, of course. |
dave
Member
Post Number: 232
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 11:52 am: |
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emerald, i'm pretty certain i didn't say who did it, just that it was done. all it takes is one extremist moron to ruin the reputation of many good people. also, what changed? your statement sounds like the world was saved, when really nothing changed except that a small patch of forest was saved. granted, it's still a nice, small victory, but don't think it "changed the face of the northern forest" |
emerald
Member
Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 8:42 pm: |
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Dave, I'm not sensing you are hearing what was said. It was not "an extremist moron" but a calculated, intentional smear campaign by the pro development lobby that was responsible for the spikes.
Apart from the beautiful parks that were established in the Temagami region, there followed a shift in public opinion about the values in the forest.In response many efforts were initiated to involve citizens in the Forest Management process. These included the Wendaban Stewardship Council, Comprehensive Planning Council, Old Growth Policy Committee, Model Forest proposal by TAA, Timber EA, Revision of the FM Manual, Lands for Life initiative, the setting aside of the White Bear Forest near Temagami, Nastawgan Trails development and the establishment of LCCs in several Ontario communities. These are just a few of the changes that resulted from public interest in the issues around the intense months at Wakimika. The forest would definitely be different from its present state without all of this care and concern. |
grncnu
Member
Post Number: 198
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 2:27 am: |
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the spiking of trees also has a very dubious history in the places it first originated, i.e. northern california and the pacific northwest. it was a very easy way for "agents provocateurs" to discredit and demonize the "treehuggers", and was always seized upon by corporate media as an effective way to drive a wedge between environmentalists and people living in logging-dependent communities. the forest industry has always feared the development of an alliance between these two groups who essentially share the same interest, i.e. forest conservation and sustainable practices. |
doug_2
Member
Post Number: 177
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 11:12 am: |
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I tend to generally agree with Emerald, both on the tree spiking and on changes that happened in Temagami. I was actually employed by MNR Temagami at that time, involved with parks and canoe routes but like others here I also hated the Red Squirrel Road extension and erosion of Temagami wilderness values. My impression is that the tree spiking was probably not done by environmentalists and was an easy way to try to discredit the envrionmentalist movement in Temagami. Although to be fair to Dave's comments, there were a few (not many) potentially extreme people from a USA based hard core Environmental group (that I won;t name) who spent some time in Temagami around the the peak of the RS Road protest. As Dave suugests, there is always a slight possibility of one extreme person acting or at least thinking it could be a good strategy. If so, (and I doubt very much that it actually happened ) it would be without approval from the majority and would be secretive. The fact that the spikes were found so quickly and seemingly selectively too seems to suggest they may have been planted. |
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