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Ottertooth Forums * Temagami canoe routes & backcountry travel * Archive through August 23, 2007 * Nastawgan (Onigum and/or Bonkanah) < Previous Next >

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sundown
Member

Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Hey Folks

Does anyone know if there is a formal written policy by OMNR and/or Ontario Parks regarding
trail and/or portage clearing (rehabilitation) on either designated or undesignated Nastawgan, or...

Failing a written policy, who are the best OMNR and Ontario Parks personnel in the "Ottertooth Area" who might be best to consult regarding their personal and non-binding interpretation of
common sense? (Contact Numbers or email address?)

I've seen archived discussion on Ottertooth but I am at a level of uncertainty as to what is "Policy", what is "Interpretation", and what is "informally done by individuals"?

I understand that too... I apply my own common sense and stand behind my belief in it, and, I guess take on the risk which may accompany that, if there is no "clear and defined policy".
I just cannot be sure which Ottertooth postings are Policy and which are personal Impressions/Intentions?

If you respond with opinion-only, no problem, but I'd appreciate it if you can specify so to me on your posting.

Thanks

PS Also trying to find a number or email for an
old schoolchum... Peter Gilboe Conservation Officer... anyone have a contact?


Sundown
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otter_mel
Member

Post Number: 73
Registered: 03-2004


Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Try contacting the goood folks at Nastawgan Network for info

http://nastawgan.ca/

(Message edited by Otter Mel on May 11, 2007)

(Message edited by Otter Mel on May 11, 2007)
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 47
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Otter Mel

Thank you... I'm a new guy...
Thanks

Sundown
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 49
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

To everyone:

I've also transcribed this request to Nastawgan
See request there, as well.

Sundown
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brian
Moderator

Post Number: 680
Registered: 02-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

There are two different policies with regard to Crown land and parks, so you will have to contact different individuals: John Salo for Temagami parks, and Bob Aubin for Crown land in North Bay (not sure the counterpart in Kirkland Lake).
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 50
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 1:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Brian

Do you have any Numbers/Email addresses?

Thanks
Sundown
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brian
Moderator

Post Number: 681
Registered: 02-2004


Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

John Salo (salojohn@ontera.net)

Bob Aubin (bob.aubin@mnr.gov.on.ca)
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chris
Member

Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2006


Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Hi Sundown,

I did speak with John Salo and Rick Calhoun regarding this very topic.

What I got out of the conversation was that if one is planning to do any work on Crown Lands, then a permit is required. Contact Rick and he will direct you to the required course of action.
Similarly, within Parks or CRs, you should contact John to obtain a permit - or at least as a courtesy before heading out.

However, I also pointed out that there appears to be a loophole here and, IMO, it is as follows:
The MNR has publicly released documentation that has provided information on portages and winter routes that may or may not be in use - their status is unknown.

When one is out on a canoe trip and encounters obstructions upon that route, it is established common practice to remove these obsticles to passage. If one is travelling a lesser used route, then it should be expected that this person may need to take some measures to safely traverse a given portage. Be that; cutting some deadfall, clearing some new growth and perhaps leaving some marks so that this individual can retace his path.

So when does routine necessary portage maintenance, something Temagami canoe trippers have always done, become a work requiring a permit?

My advice would be to talk to Rick and/or John before hand. Even if its just as a courtesy and to establish and maintain good-will. If you were to encounter a Ranger while brushing Nastawgan in a Park, they could charge you. However, due to preceeding circumstances and precedent, they might have trouble making it stick though, should one decide to make a challange of it.

Just my opinion.

Chris
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Chris

First, I know Rick from my days running my department at Northern Region Timmins Regional Fire Centre... haven't spoken to him in four years, but at that time I believe he was in NBay office???... still??? so,
I really do thank you, because there will be some "old MNR" rapport... and capacity to talk some fireside-talk, which really is what I'm looking for here. To you, and to others who might read this, i REALLY appreciate the opinions, which are just that... opinions.

I'm a youngish "old-school" guy, with a large respect for the leaving-no-footprints, as mandated by total-common-sense. And, the old-school mnr guys... like Rick (my opinion)... are who i want to talk to. In this day and age, guys like Rick will (my opinion) "tell you about the line... but ask questions about the line, to you, and let you decide where
you might consider looking for the right questions to get a common-sense result".

So Chris, I thank you, more than you could know.
I rose from MNR Sub-Office to Office to District to Region in 4 years (and worked with Dr Kourtz at Petawawa Natinional Forest research centre, and turned down Provincial to go to University for Business) and the most treasured reference
I have today came from Stew Bernhardt MNR, Ricks
Boss, I believe, who said "he does do what needs doing, and that rubs a lot of people wrong, but
mostly those who, unlike him, dont know their
axe?-from-their-elbow"... Rick does. And, folks,
I'm only giving you that quote, so you WILL know
I WILL absorb your comments (not relay them, or act rashly upon them) but try VERY hard to legislate a difference... which makes sense.

Fire your thoughts at me. How should it be/read?

My whole goal here is to "policy" Common Sense.
To remove the "potential-for-charge" from folks
who understand/respect Commonsense.

And, I want to "policy" it first... and soon.
These trails are millenia old... predated paper...lets get the paper done, finally.

Thanks again... Great Insight, Chris... if you've more to say, you have my word I will push for the paper, first... but, I just feel it needs to be done. To me, its nonsense that "we" will cut hectare after hectare clearcut-to-the-ground, yet respect a 60 metre rule, and potentially charge-a-guy-for-simply-trying-to-get-home/out. (or respect the next guy trying to)

Its NOT right. But, I could use your comments/help.

Sundown
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 54
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Brian/Chris

I worked with a Bob Aubin in Timmins District 1984 and
a "Salo" from South Porcupine about same time...

Do you know if these folks worked there?

Regardless, will contact them this week.

Sundown
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chris
Member

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2006


Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Hey there Sundown,

For myself, I don't lay blame for the current land-use situation on any present day MNR foot-soldiers.

I believe our reality to be more the result of politics and political-will, or lack thereof...

While I don't personally know Mr. Calhoun, having only met him a couple times, I did get the sense that he was a decent man, trying to do his best with an exceedingly difficult task. Of course, it should not be surprising that one might hear comment to the contrary - especially against one so "stuck in the middle." Still, I got a solid vibe off him and while I may not covet his job, I did seriously consider making my best pitch for a Planning position out of NB a year or so ago.

Having said that, I will say that I was somewhat disappointed to not see a more progressive and innovative Integration Plan proposed - but I suppose politics still trumps all.

I guess one thing that continually irks me is the way that our present land-use regime continually plays us against each other; While "Wild Temagami" is in the progress of being fractured and depleted of it last roadless areas, we the recreational user provide the backdrop and drama while the real damage to the land continues. Personally, I find the polarity and stereotyping of the various recreational interests to be counterproductive to addressing the issues and distracting to what larger forces are affecting change in the backcountry.

Just MO – FWIW and, I digress…

I find this interesting:

quote:

My whole goal here is to "policy" Common Sense.
To remove the "potential-for-charge" from folks
who understand/respect Commonsense.

And, I want to "policy" it first... and soon.
These trails are millenia old... predated paper...lets get the paper done, finally




What are you actually proposing?


C
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 55
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Chris

Yeah, Rick is a good man... and you are absolutely right, the foot soldiers, in my experiences have not ever been the problem,
and for the most part, the guys who work closest
to the land, and farthest from Queens Park, have
always had a better sense of Common Sense...
and I suspect Mr Salo/Aubin are very knowlegeable
and astute individuals as well.

I'm not a "political" guy, which is not to say
that I am confrontational, but I like and will
work hard to encourage the legislation of Common
Sense... which, on the nastawgan issue and many
others, has been missing.

I dont want to thwart input here by getting too
specific with "my" ideas... would prefer as many
views as possible... but to answer your question,

In Ontario, we used to have a policy on Nastawgan, and the policy was that the MNR Foot
Soldiers would maintain/improve Nastawgan.
You and I and all taxpayers paid the bill. The
MNR (often Junior Rangers) built the trails and
campsites... and the policy was then in place
that these crews applied the Common Sense. It all
worked fine... and they didnt need a Work Permit
to do it, either. It seems to me that the problem
arose, politically, when the Govt cutback the
funding to enable this work to continue... but in
my area (Temagami North) these portages and campsites are largely overgrown now. The MNR just
abandoned them and walked away.

The Portage and Campsite signs are still there,
and that indicates to me that the MNR has definately agreed these are traditionally-used
sites... and there is a reasonable expectation
that users will maintain them, I would suspect.

So those ones are easy enough, I imagine.

What I'd like to do is promote an Ongoing Work
Permit, if you will, for all Nastawgan. As I said, the MNR effectively had one themselves for
decades. I have ideas on how it could work and
how it would be accomplished, but the bottom
line is that it is not right for the MNR to
abandon the program, leave signage in place, and
then charge the user who assumes the burden of
maintenance/rehabilitation.

Sundown
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ed
Moderator

Post Number: 431
Registered: 03-2004


Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Sundown:
You should join the Nastawgan Network, if you have not already done so.
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 63
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Ed...

See Nastawgan posting for similar thread...

Glad you're back... would appreciate your thoughts on this stuff.

Thanks

Sundown
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 168
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Good Afternoon to all

application/msword
2007 Nastawgan Restoration and Rehabilitation.doc (28.7 k)


I wish you all have a great weekend... I will.
Sundown
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tess
Member

Post Number: 77
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Great work!! Have a wonderful trip Sundown!
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tess
Member

Post Number: 78
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 2:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Sundown, I may have missed it in earlier posts, but I am wondering who you work with? Your projects seem large and complex. Are you going this alone and utilizing past relations? Or, do you represent an organization of some sort?
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sundown
Member

Post Number: 169
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 3:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Hi Tess

I am a Nastawgan Member, thanks to Ed, and I try to work according to FOT principles... hope that came out right!!! I'm meeting Curly this weekend.
He's offered to be bowmate... or we'll flip for it, anyway!!!

Basically, my Grandad, and my Dad, and I have operated around our own sensibilities with regards to "What a Forest ought be", for 98 years now, I guess. My Grandad cut every one of the routes mentioned. My Dad, former OMNR Elk Lake ensured the Junior Rangers kept them open.
He also made sure I kept them open the year I discovered girls... solo I'm afraid. He paid me
3 dollars an hour out of his own pocket, and I needed the job... for about 3 days... then I did it for free and made sure he got the money he'd paid me, back.

All that being said, no, I dont really presently represent any organization, unless they let me and my (and Roula's) sensibilities. Then, we're honoured. It's not for us to decide, ya know?

I am a Thinker. I've done some things, I guess.
No, I dont feel alone. Yes, I've got some real good and treasured past relations... most everyone I've had the fortune to meet, I guess...
but, no I dont use them (I know u didnt mean it that way), but, I like to think that I, and whoever I am talking with, each have a hard-earned, and warranted "wish to co-operate" for things that we both feel are good. And right.

I'm 46. Been out of the MNR for 20 years now.
That doesnt seem to matter to folks who made their decision about you years ago. Indeed, that's the Way of the North. Ask Hap, maybe.
If you mess someone over, it sticks to you.
If you dont, that sticks to you, too.

That last sentence, more than any, explains why Roula and I would do something like this. Its not so much what you are due, as what you owe, to folks who afford you their opinion of you, and
share similar sensibilities.

I love my North.
Thats all.

Sundown
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tess
Member

Post Number: 79
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 8:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post

Sundown, It is a pleasure to read your posts. You are obviously a very compassionate and caring person.
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purser
Member

Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 7:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post

Sundown,
It took me a while to find the meaning of Nastawgan, which was explained clearly on the ottertooth.com website (of course, silly me). What a most interesting bit of knowledge, the routes and ways of the elders of the past. Speaking of the past, my father who passed away over 20 years ago now, was a long time worker at L&F , now MNR. He started off in Latchford, tried his hand at working in Sudbury for a year and absolutely hated it, returned to Latchford, and being a hard worker, got his job back. He was a self taught carpenter who became more skilled as the years went on. He built houses for game wardens in Temagami and Marten River, but he was better known for his canoe and boat construction. I still remember a boat he built that had alternating dark and light wood on the bow portion of the boat. I was very impressed. They steamed all the canoe and boat ribs in the shop across the lake. This meant that in the winter evenings when he got home he was always cold. We'd be just about roasted out of the house.

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