| Author |
Message |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 10:03 am: | 
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hey folks, I must say I find this forum exremely useful. So I am looking for opinions on an issue which I am facing as a volunteer with a high school outdoor education program.
We go canoeing at the end of September until the Thanksgiving weekend. The last two years and this one, we have/are going to Killarney.For Ten days in Killarney, I find the park a bit small. I suggested Temagami, as another high school in the area does their final trip in June there.
I have been told that Temagami in early October is too unpredictable weather-wise.
Seeing as we had snow in Killarney last year, anyway, I do not really see their point.
We have two chaperones with six kids times four such groups. The kids are all over-achievers, post swim-test ORCA 1 and very motivated. Not hoods in the woods type stuff.
What are your thoughts on this. I feel there is no problem in Temagami during this period. The water temperature is what matters, not air.
A route that avoids large lake crossings is easy to plan. I do not really understand the objections. the main teacher has canoed there many times and acknowledges that it is a much more signigicant experience than Killarney.
Bears were also mentioned as a reason not to go, but I saw more bears in Killarney last year than I have ever seen in Temagami.
Anyone who regularly paddles there around the beginning of October, I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
I am pushing for it next year (enough of Killarney!)
Thanks in advance. |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 469
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 10:45 am: |
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Fireman
I am "of two minds" on this, so I hope you can sift my words, and find some helpful bits.
First, as someone born and raised in the area north of Temagami, the fall was (and remains) my favourite time of year for tripping... and, I do regularly tentcamp at Christmas even... so, its hard for me to object to your proposal... if you are well-prepared for any eventuality, have a highly-skilled guide-group, and if you always err on the side of caution (and common sense) regardless of what you may encounter... well, Bob's-yer-uncle.
Proviso's though...
Age and Experience are huge factors... being an 'overachiever' doesnt necessary qualify anyone to challenge the odds (or necessarily THIS environment) at the best of times, ok?
Weather is a huge (and unpredictable) factor, and I would go as far to say "stay COMPLETELY away from Bigwater" altogether.
Plan for the 'Worst', expect the 'Worst'... hopefully you will get the 'Best'... but, chances are you will also get a lot of the "worst'.
You're into Hunting season... be aware... and, Bear and Moose and Wolves require a high degree of preparedness and forethought/planning... always.
One critical comment... Hypothermia doesnt discriminate regarding Air vs Water Temperature.
Neither Ought You?
Finally, I "Do" Understand the objections, Fireman. I dont mean to come across as harsh here, but in my mind, it is ABSOLUTELY essential that you DO understand those objections too, before you venture out in the North at this time of year.
Regards
Sundown |
preacher
Member
Post Number: 55
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 11:31 am: |
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fireman you are 100% correct.
Temagami isn't that much further N for Killarney to make enough of a difference. It's not like the lakes are going to freeze over.
Killarney is a great example of what has been done in the past to protect areas. Lakes recovering from acid rain & whatnot.
Temagami is a great example of what still needs to be done.
I'd suggest a route through Obabika & hire Alex for a day or two. Old growth, Sprit Rock, rock paintings, Grandma&Pa rock.
Take 'em up Maple Mountain. Go see the dunes.
Post swim test ORCKA1 is more than most people who trip the area have.
Anyone who mentions bears as a worry has almost no idea what they're talking about. Four groups of 8 people would be very lucky to see a bear.
No matter where you go in Ontario, when you in October your biggest worry is the weather. The weather isn't going to be that much different from Killarney. Heck, I'd wager better since you're not dealing with wind that got it's start over in the Sioux. |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 470
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 12:02 pm: |
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Film-Clip
Responsible Parent: "As a Mother of one of the Students you will be charged with safeguarding, I'm just worried about degree of Preparedness and Forethought/Planning you have given to the possibility of encounters with potentially dangerous and/or predatory animals???"
Teacher/Guide/School Board: "Ma'am... anyone who mentions bears as a worry has almost no idea what they're talking about". Next Question???
Fade to Black
Sundown |
preacher
Member
Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 12:12 pm: |
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HeeHee
"Ma'am, bears are a minor concern and easily avoided. Actually, they are trying to avoid us. We would be lucky if even one group spotted a bear. Such a sighting would most certainly be of the bear's rear-end as it runs away. We're not talking about Pit Bulls." |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 471
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 12:27 pm: |
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Correct Preacher... and I certainly appreciate both your comments and you understanding my (hopefully) humourous methodology of making a crucial point.
As someone who has been charged with safeguarding Students since about 1976, I have learned to plan (and educate) for every possible eventuality, rather than slough them off.
I had a Student rupture an appendix on one of my first outings... and, a young lady go into full shock from a beesting (never having been stung before)... I've seen rivers rise 60 feet in a New Zealand river canyon... and, 7 of the 300+ Black Bear I've encountered showed me an up close and personal view of their tonsils rather than a glimpse of their haunches retreating... I also remember (far too well) the Lake Temiskaming tragedy...
I am not at all ashamed of stating that these things "do certainly worry me when they occur"... and, though I agree the odds are minor, they arent minor at all when they occur.
As a guide and mentor to youth in the wilds, I have "my way" and "my opinions", and more than a little experience dealing with what concerns parents.
I DO always hope for the Best... but, I never ever count on it.
Preacher, I appreciate your participation in terms of having allowed me to say my peace.
Regards
Sundown |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 2:39 pm: |
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I had no intention to incite such heated debate.
I have tripped up there in the fall many times myself.
As to trip preparedness,that to me is something more connected to skills and the ability to react to situations rather than having every last possibility prepared in advance. where does that lead? Deifibrillators with guides?
I dare those most entitled to speak on this knowledgeably are those who were leading kids on trips 30-40 years ago...The restrictions today applied by Boards of Education are not reflective of a responsible attitude towards Out Door Education, they are simply libel driven regulations achieving the erosion of all these programs.
The Blue Water Board has such tight restrictions on open water, we are not allowed to swim on a ten day canoe trip. Only if we had two NLS guards PER group. Surely this was not the case in the 70's and earlier? The canoe trips done by the private camps appear to me to by highly risky given that I have come across eight 13 year-olds with two 17 year-old guides doing the South Lady Evelyn River, never having done it before and not being able to get their canoes up FatMan's Portage. So rest assured, I am not casual about safety.
I am a parent. I taught my daughter to swim at age one. That is the best preparedness for the threat of drowning.
So, will due respect to all, I understand these considerations when it comes to risk assessment and management, I was a soldier, I am an officer with Toronto Fire downtown for twenty years, very few bears, I must admit, but there are things in those alleyways much scarier than bears.
Specific to the weather issue, I find it the only serious consideration. Hunters who hunt there are not shooting at groups of loud teenagers and we risk hunting accidents much more where we live in The Beaver Valley.
So there must be some small water routes that are do-able.
As a definition, what do you all consider Big Water?
Is paddling the edge of Diamond from say, Sharp Rock to the Bob Lake portage constitute a big water paddle, or not.
That should do, thanks for the feedback. |
preacher
Member
Post Number: 58
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 3:59 pm: |
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Totally agree with you on rules to protect from litigation instead of from reasonable risk. There was a time, I remember, children were allowed to leave the house without a helemt and a stranger was just a friend you haven't met yet.
Big Water? It's subjective, but lakes like LE & Diamond & Obabika & Temagami where the wind & waves can get dangerous fast are my rule of thumb.
I would consider Diamond from Sharp Rock big water because of the size & orientation of the lake. You can get hammered from the prevailing winds.
Big Water is something that you judge when it happens. It's just more likely to happen on a lake that's 5 km long and a couple wide than it is on a smaller lake. |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 8:57 pm: |
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So the next question is: what is a viable nine or ten day route in Temagami that avoids big water, or at least takes in the right direction.
Ferguson Bay seems like the best stepping off point in terms of school bus drop off. Lake Temagami is out of the question except for crossing over to Sharp Rock and even that has a constant south wind blowing (every time I've crossed it, anyway).
It is a challenge. But worth it. I've got 13 months to figure it out and sell it to the teachers. |
hillbilly
Member
Post Number: 422
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 10:41 pm: |
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Drop Off at the Montreal River North of Lady Dufferin Lake. Canoe to Ispatina Ridge, hike up and then to the Sturgeon River, might be a bit of a slug to the Sturgeon. Then down the Sturgeon and up into Manitou Lake and the take out at Manitou Lake by the lodge. The bus can make it easy on the Hwy, 805.
Only one big lake and that is Smoothwater Lake, it should be no problem.
Just my thoughts.
Bill
(Message edited by hillbilly on August 24, 2009)
(Message edited by hillbilly on August 24, 2009) |
ed
Moderator
Post Number: 652
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 11:13 pm: |
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Fireman:
I think the Upper Sturgeon is not maybe a good river for a group of high school kids to go on in the late Fall.Too many opportunities for spills, due to many rapids, falls and chutes along the route that Hillbilly is suggesting. Also many portages.
The Sturgeon from Lower Goose Falls to Wawiakashi to Manitou might work.The river there is pretty placid and meanders a lot.
But another question is group size. Fireman do all of your 4 separate groups travel together?
That would be 32 people looking for a campsite each night or are they staggered?
And.....you might consider going to the Chiniguchi area which can be accessed off # 17 between Sudbury and Sturgeon Falls. There are lot's of school trips that go through there.
MicMac who posts here from time to time might have some suggestions for school trips through that area.You can find trip descriptions here on ottertooth.
I have seen highschool trips going through Temagami both in the early May following ice-out and up until late September, so it is something that is/has been done.
And.... as you say you have lot's of time to think about a suitable route. |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 7:43 am: |
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Hey folks, the four groups camp independently. Two groups shadow each other, in Killarney we set out in opposite directions, that is two and two meeting at the halfway point, but having said all that, campsites are always an issue.
I've done the Sturgeon and love it. I consider it a river that has it all. But it is a slog.
Dozens of steep portages and that is where all the time delays are with school kids. The chiniguchi idea sounds very attractive, although it lacks a little of the austerity of Temagami proper. Truthfully, I thought of Ferguson Bay, Sharp Rock, Diamond to Lady Evelyn, cross over to Willow Island Lake, up Maple Mountain back down Chris Willis to Centre Falls to Katharine the south channel and either the big portage or back the same way. I think the exposure on Diamond is limited if one sticks to the north shore before the north arm and then the east side of the north arm. Bottom line, there is enough water on any of these routes to be a problem. We shall see, but I really appreciate the knowledgeable advice and input.
Have a good day, everyone. |
ed
Moderator
Post Number: 653
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 10:17 am: |
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Fireman:
What you are proposing would make a good trip.The Lady Evelyn up to and down from Katherine would be a better bet than the Sturgeon with your kids. Also if you decided not to do this part with all it's portaging you could substitute it out for a return trip down Diamond to Wakimika (or through Bob Lake) and into Obabika to see the old growth at the north end of Obabika. Then leave Obabika through Obabika Inlet portage and go into Eye Lake and then Devil Bay crossing over into Ferguson Bay and back to Sandy Inlet.
2 areas of concern would be wind on Obabika from SW, but leave early in the morning to beat the wind god and if you are unlucky enough to have a NW wind crossing Devil's Bay, that can be a bit difficult but the kids have had paddling experience by then .....
Just some other thoughts.... |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 472
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 10:33 am: |
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The 'Chimneystack' climb at Centre Falls is especially interesting with an inch or two of snow or ice of course, but if the Weathergods co-operate, I concur with Ed... and, it's especially scenic at this time of year, IMO.
Sundown |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 11:47 am: |
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Appreciate the information. The Obabika loop would probably fit in, the other two groups going there first. As to Centre Falls, well, any hint of ice and I think we would probably back track. I've never crossed at Devil's Bay,but the topo seems to suggest it is not too bad. NOt much different than Sharp Rock approach. The problem is, both sections are at the very beginning of the trip, so if there is wind, it is the first thing encountered by the students.Unavoidable, I think. Is the Chris Willis' portage open to Frank Falls? |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 473
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 12:07 pm: |
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Fireman
As you likely know there is a ton of waterspray at Centre Falls, so at that time of year there are reasonable odds of overnight icing there...
The last time i was thru I did scout south of the base of the Chimneystack climb, and if you did get blocked out of the climb itself, 150 metres of bushwhacking would allow you to circle south and west and circumvent.
If you folks do end up doing this route, and if your crew might be agreeable, my original local Bushmentor and I might have an interest in tagging along.
Some of the most rewarding trips I've ever experienced, were guiding/mentoring youth.
I commend you for providing such Leadership as well.
Sundown |
ed
Moderator
Post Number: 654
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 12:13 pm: |
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Fireman:
not sure about this.... "Is the Chris Willis' portage open to Frank Falls?"
I recall a recent post on this either here on ottertooth or on myccr.com. The route through the bog to Chris Willis does get pretty shallow some years. Great place to see Moose in the Spring though. |
fireman
Member
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 4:12 pm: |
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I am not sure I know exactly what the Chimney Stack climb at Centre Falls refers to. Is it where the old bridge was or the take out downstream up the goat path???
Or perhaps the big step before the campsite going upstream???
I had not thought of the water spray freezing. I guess it is an issue if the temperature drops dramatically at night.
I have had ice there on my tarp, but it melts off pretty early assuming there is sun.
I guess what I am really asking you all is this,
"does Temagami strike you as fundamentally more dangerous or problematic than Killarney?"
Canoe tripping has inherent risks, that is everyone's starting point, I think.
Would you take your own kid on a trip in Temagami that ended October 8th?
I am not out to shove my love of Temagami down the throats of this outdoor education program.
What I do find is that Killarney, with all of its beauty notwithstanding, gets crowded and the worry over campsites creates tension that simply is not there in Temagami. Like I said before, I have 13 months to work this out. But I sincerely appreciate the thought put into your responses. Thanks. |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 474
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 8:10 pm: |
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Fireman
Would I take my own Daughter on a trip there that ended October 8th?
Inna Heartbeat
Chimneystack is what the oldtimers referred to as the 3 ledge vertical that starts right at the base of the maindrop of Centre Falls...
You 'takeout' at the bottom of the rapids, portage over some very prominent boulder paths for a bit, and end up at the campsite facing Centre Falls... Chimneystack is where the old walkbridge used to be, and yes it will almost certainly be icy October mornings...
Where there's a will there's a way... i was just pointing out the ice issue in case you werent aware... its a darn good tumble down if one slips.
Sundown |
otter_mel
Member
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 8:49 pm: |
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But then again, we may have a late Summer and Indian Summer to boot so it may be HOT!
We can only hope! |
ed
Moderator
Post Number: 655
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 10:01 pm: |
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Historically ice has not formed in Temagami in October.Check the statistical numbers for air temperatures on the Weather Network for the Sudbury area.And remember that the water temperatures are still suitable for swimming in early October....if you are so inclined.
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/statistics/C02038 /caon0664
I would be more concerned about water spray freezing up in early May, just after ice-out, when the air temperatures can drop below -10C on the odd occasion. |
hillbilly
Member
Post Number: 424
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 11:25 pm: |
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I would have to agree with Ed. The water temps and the land temps do not add up to ice in early Oct. Late Oct. and Nov. yes. You mat see frost and also freezing rain but that is the norm most.
Bill |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 475
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 7:49 am: |
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Ed
Maybe I'm reading your charts wrong, but doesnt the chart show "Number of Days with Temp Below Zero" read "2 Days" on Average for September, and "12 Days" on Average for October???
Sundown |
ed
Moderator
Post Number: 659
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 8:03 am: |
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I saw that also but the data is over a 30 year period. |
sundown
Member
Post Number: 476
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 8:20 am: |
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Thanks Ed... Actually, I wasn't aware of the Statistics Link on this website... Thanks for providing it.
Here's the stats for Earlton over the same period...
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/index.php?product =statistics&pagecontent=C02041
Having grown up on the Montreal River, and spending a lot of time Airborne... maybe Irishfield or Bushpilot will confirm... I always noted that the weather was often very different between Temagami and Elk Lake along the Montreal.
The Earlton data seems to confirm that, especially if one notes the Wind Directions between Sudbury and Earlton on these charts... Sudbury having Southerly/SouthWesterly patterns and Earlton almost invariably Northerly.
You will also note the differences in Temp, and Mins are quite different.
Sundown |
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Temagami canoe routes & backcountry travel